InterChange Conference on Personal Relations in Forster's Howards End (Chp.1-22)

June 12, 2000

Karin Westman:

Early in Forster's novel, Margaret says to Helen: "This outer life, though obviously horrid, often seems the real one -- there's grit in it. It does breed character. Do personal relations lead to sloppiness in the end?" (page 28/Chp. 4). Helen responds (much as Forster might in his essay, "What I Believe") that "personal relations are the real life, for ever and ever," to which Margaret then replies, "Amen" (page 28/Chp. 4).

Given the 200 hundred pages you've read so far, do you think Margaret and Helen are correct -- that is, are we to think that personal relations are the "real life"? Why or why not?

Elizabeth Andrews:

I think that the whole book explores the pros and cons of both perspectives. Margaret in particular recognizes the value of the Wilcox's business manner--but even Helen is attracted by it in the end. The bottom line though, seems to be that while the Schlegal sisters are capable of appreciating the business and materialistic mindedness of the Wilcoxes, the Wilcoxes cannot understand and/or appreciate the culture and open-mindedness of the Schlegals.

Elizabeth Andrews:

aagh, I meant that Helen is attracted to it in the BEGINNING.

Karin Westman:

Good points, Elizabeth -- what eactly are the benefits of the"Wilcox way"?

Elizabeth Andrews:

They are extremely efficient in business matters. Also everyone seems to notice and admire their superiority. I mean, the way they treat lower classes. For instance that section where Margaret knows the driver's name and Henry is shocked. For him the chauffer is a utility. Margaret is intrigued by this.

Elizabeth Davis:

helen and meg feed off relationships as a way to make life real. dining with guests and repeating conversations about art and asthetics seem like a contridiction. .. real people with created art. the outer art breeds the character that bloomsbury, london, and germany appear to be.

Elizabeth Andrews:

There is something powerful about arrogance. Not to say that it is attractive, but one gets a sense that Henry's authority on the Prophyrion and other companies is the bottom line. We know that it isn't and when he is wrong, and those of less means who have gotten caught up in his authoritative manner (the Schlegals and Mr. Bast) suffer from it. But his "way" has swept them in, away from their Beethoven concerts so-to-speak.

Karin Westman:

Do the Wilcoxes offer substantial food for the Schlegels, Elizabeth D.?

Doug Grant:

I believe that their is a partial truth to this statement. How true the statement is really depends on one's perception of the statement. In this novel, personal relations definitely form the real life with regards to class status and social structure. But when considering this, and also considering the significant differences among the Wilcoxes, Schlegels, and Leonard Bast, it can also be argued that these differences that society creates-based on wealth, materialism, and cultural reputation, only help to dress up and conceal the realism of social realtions. When you strip away these superficial aspects of social interaction, then you can see just how real personal relations are in this novel with regards to Helen's statement to Meg.

Elizabeth Andrews:

I agree with Elizabeth Davis in that the Schlegal sisters seem to reap the benefits of their energies through their relationships. All the Wilcoxes have is business reward which ends up being cold money and material goods--like the car. The comparative values of the two according to what we know about Bloomsbury so far would suggest that the Schlegals have their priorities in order or "Amen."

Karin Westman:

What do you all make of Doug's comment about the role of social factors in this realm of "personal relations"? That they have a big impact on those relations?

Elizabeth Davis:

yes, the wilcoxes give the schlegels plenty to rant and rave over. mrs. wilcox is an older generation who cares nothing for the mindless conversations of art and beaty the schlegels carry on. the wilcox men are unorthodox in schlegel expectations...tibby is a healthy balance betweeen masculinity and intlellect whereas the wilcoxes are clueless.

Elizabeth Andrews:

I think Doug is right on the money. The social chasm between the Wilcoxes and Leonard Bast seems to make it impossible for the two to be interested in the condition of the other. Even the Schlegals are so intimidating to Leonard that he is dying to just get his umbrella and run, despite the potential outlet for his cultural passions that would result in talking extensively with the Schlegals. I think that personal relationships are almost limited to reward by class. Meaning that even if they weren't sisters, Helen and Margaret would be most likely to reap the benifits of their relationship with each other as opposed to a combination of other characters.

Elizabeth Davis:

the social factors directly affect personal relations.

Elizabeth Davis:

...hang on, i have more to that....e

Elizabeth Andrews:

I don't think that Tibby is a "healthy balance" beyond the Wilcoxes perception because his intellect is completely primary. He seems to value nothing more than he does his schooling. There is evidence at the concert that he purposely avoids personal interaction (chasing after Helen with the stolen umbrella) in order to enrich himself in the "study" of Beethoven's music.

Doug Grant:

I think that it's interesting to compare and contrast the two ends of the social spectrum that the Wilcoxes and Schlegel's represent. Whereas the former family finds money and materialism to be at the heart of living content lifestyles, the Schegel sisters find the real contentment is to be sought through English culturalism and social idealism. The two views can be seen as complete opposites, or can be seen as as two ideas that go hand in hand. I don't know which way Forster wants readers to see this.

Karin Westman:

On Tibby: ourr narrator tells us that he wamrs the teapot almost too efficiently--that he's too well versed in those feminine ways, which kind of sounds like a criticism to me....

Elizabeth Davis:

personal relations deems to be an idea out of the ordinary here. how can one have a persoanl relationship without the person. and little or no person is given. we are given addresses, thoughts on love and music, and how bored mrs. wilcox is with london. the real person gets mixed up in the social relm. yet, we see charles and his father react to mrs. wilcox's note in a real way.

Elizabeth Andrews:

I don't know that the particular references to Tibby's efficiency or feminine ways are particularly criticism or if it is just a refection of the effects of growing up in a household of women.

Elizabeth Davis:

i don't think that is criticism on tibby's behalf. i think it makes him more solidly a "renniasance man" in this book. shows his abilities outside the expected masculine ways.

"too efficiently" i guess that could be criticism but i see tibby as an idealistic masculine snob.

Karin Westman:

Good point -- so, does our narrator ask us to question the degree of "femininity" in the Schlegel household, or the masculinity of the Wilcox one?

Karin Westman:

If you'd like to switch to the other conference, you can....just use the "Join a conference" function, and wait for all the messages to load in.

Elizabeth Andrews:

I think that Forster is more sympathetic to the Schlegals. However, he seems to do this by recognizing the Schlegal sister's intellectual capacity (all the discussion of women's lib is not for naught...) to contend with or understand the Wilcoxes masculinity whereas the Wilcoxes are closed to the realms of femininity and/or sensitivity to culture.

Elizabeth Davis:

right, elizabeth. the wilcox do not explore anything out of class or gender roles whereas the tibby and his sisters have crosssed all lines.

Karin Westman:

Good points about gender crossing in the Schlegel camp...

So, why do we need the Wilcoxes, if the Schlegel contigent can be both masculine and feminine? (Or, are they not enough Wilcox-like....?)

Elizabeth Andrews:

I don't like the Wilcoxes. I say we get rid of 'em.

Karin Westman:

****In order to wrap this first half of our discussion, offer a final posting in response to this question: Does Margaret and Helen's credo of "personal relations" ultimately encourage connection between people in this book, or prevent it, work against it?

Elizabeth Andrews:

Just kidding. I think that in this novel especially, the Wilcoxes are such a wonderful contrast to the Schlegals it makes the reader recognize how truly exceptional they are. In reality (even in England :P) there are all kinds of people and all kinds of priorities on the spectrum. Forster is asking us to question our core values as well as the efficiency of the social system.

Elizabeth Davis:

we need the wilcoxes for contrast. in a boring way.

Elizabeth Andrews:

I think that the credo of the Schlegal sisters encourages connection in Howard's End. Just look at Margaret's determination to connect with Henry. Even though she seems to operate on a different level she sees the potential of a "bridge" that will result in a "beautiful" relationship.

Elizabeth Davis:

helen and meg's credo encourage "personal relations" in an artsy sense of superficiality. the people don't seem as important as the relationship itself. the "personal" part of relationships is does not exist. the connections between people are encouraged through their connections elsewhere.

Other points to consider: Does desire (especially sexual desire) interfere with the success of "personal relations" or augment their success? When Forster's narrator remarks that "[i]t is private life that holds out the mirror to infinity; personal intercourse, and that alone, that ever hints at a personality beyond our daily presence" (84), what kind of "personality" is the narrator referring to?

 

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