InterChange Conference on Woolf's To the Lighthouse (pp.1-71)

June 19, 2000

Karin Westman:

Reflecting on Mrs. Ramsay's "wilful" and "commanding" character and her ability to "adroitly shape," "even maliciously twist," people's needs and requests, Lily describes a scene between the two of them:

 

and, moving over to the window, in pretence that she must go, -- it was dawn, she could see the sun rising, -- [she would] half turn back, more intimately, but still always laughing, insist that she must, Minta must, they all must marry, since in the whole world whatever laurels might be tossed to her (but Mrs. Ramsay cared not a fig for her painting), or triumphs won by her (probably Mrs. Ramsay had her share of those), and here she saddened, darkened, and came back to her chair, there could be no disputing this: an unmarried woman (she lightly took her hand for a moment), an umarried woman had missed the best of life. (49)

Why does Mrs. Ramsay insist that MInta and Lily "must" marry? How does our knowledge of her marriage to Mr. Ramsay influence our reading of her desires for Minta and Lily, as well as our reading of the novel's view of marriage?

Elizabeth Davis:

Looks like marriage is supposed to save the girls, unlike her own marriage to Mr. Ramsay.

Amy Ketner:

a married woman has a better chance in the society of the day to better herself and use her tallents to better her family--being backed up by a husband was important

Karin Westman:

What will marriage save them from, Elizabeth?

Amy Ketner:

Mrs Ramsay is not able to see that marriage is not essential for all women, and that some can benifit from being single

Doug Grant:

Elizabeth's right. Mrs. Ramsay is using her influence to persuade Minta and Lily to marry because she doesn't want the two to miss that great aspect of their lives. And yet, her own marriage seems unsatisfactory. This is probably shown when Mrs. Ramsay suddenly saddens in this description of her.

Caroline Hunt:

I'm curious why Mrs. Ramsey "saddened" and "darkened" and put forth this view not as her own heartfelt one but as an inescapable fact of social life ("there could be no disputing this"). In other words, why is she insisting on something that she herself seems to feel ambivalent about (at best)?

(A note--I haven't read this novel in over 30 years, so I hope you'll help me out here.)

Karin Westman:

Let's talk more about Mrs. Ramsay's dissatisifaction with her marriage: What does she dislike? Does she admit that marriage is not "perfect"?

Elizabeth Davis:

the girls are theorectically going to be "taken care of" and worked into society when the marry. but it seems to me that if they married a man that they "disliked his narrowness and blindness" and resented looking after him then they were not being saved from solitude and a life as an old maid. rather, they were intering into a solitary confinement.

Elizabeth Davis:

entering

Doug Grant:

Mrs. Ramsay has conformed to a social standard for women of her time. How much more were unmarried women frowned upon during this time period? She's met the expectations of her generation through her marriage, but she cannot totally conceal her lack of fulfillment through her marriage.

Amy Ketner:

It seems that Mrs. Ramsay should be the first to understand the girls hesitation towards marriage

Karin Westman:

Yes -- What has she lost, or not gained? What leaves her unfulfilled?

Are we to see her as hypocritical, given Amy's comment?

Caroline Hunt:

Doug raises an important point. Unmarried women were in a different situation at this particular time than before or after--because such a huge proportion of young men had been killed in the war. Thus, on the one hand, it was somewhat more respectable than usual to be single if your young man had "not come back" -- on the other hand, I suspect there must have been a feeling that those who _did_ have a chance to marry would be somehow ungrateful not to take it.

Amy Ketner:

Maybe not so much hypocritical as just unwilling to accept the fact that society could be wrong

Doug Grant:

Mrs. Ramsay can understand the girls' hesitation to marry, but she wants the best for the girls, so she persuades the most socially acceptable path for them.

Elizabeth Davis:

she dislikes her husband! she dislikes his focus on himself! he teaches and preaches to everyone outside the family and speaks only "nonsense" to them.

Caroline Hunt:

Do we see some of the same psychological syndromes today? Mrs. Ramsey has invested so much of her life and energy in the "system" of marriage shown here that she is reluctant to criticize it openly.

In its extreme form, this line of emotional response leads to what is called "Stockholm Syndrome," in which hostages become drawn to their keepers.

Elizabeth Davis:

a hypocrite, i'm not sure. yes, in that she wants her girls to enter an instituion that has left her emotionally empty and hungry. she is not a hypocrite for wanting something good for her girls, a way out of the stagnation of their relationship with Mr. ramsy

Karin Westman:

So. she may only stay married because that is what she should or must do, instead of going off and becoming the investigator she dreams of (p.9).

What has marraige allowed Mrs. Ramsay to do or be, then, contained as she is within its cultural confines?

Doug Grant:

It would make sense for Mrs. Ramsay to have Stockholm syndrome, because here we see what she feels in her heart, and yet she makes a statement that would fall in line with her husband's ideals.

Doug Grant:

If Mrs. Ramsay were so contained by her marriage, then wouldn't it be better and far more interesting to see her encourage the girls to boldly follow a path that she herself could never take. I guess that would be a negative way of her living through someone else.

Amy Ketner:

Marriage has allowed her not to follow her dream for her life and conform to the thoughts and ideals of her husband--as far as her place in society--she was not rich--she is a woman who is left to take care of her eight children and listen to her husband.

Caroline Hunt:

Going back to Karin's most recent question--and this is a real question to me, meaning I don't know the answer--what has marriage, the institution, offered to Mrs. R. than makes it worth her while to "buy into" the whole idea? Is she separating the institution somehow from her own particular situation? Or is she somehow mentally discounting Mr. R. the real person so that he isn't a part of "marriage" in the abstract?

Karin Westman:

Doug's comment suggests that Mrs. Ramsay *could* chose to act on her strength and send the girls towards a different life. Of course, I've jsut presumed that she is a strong character: What to the rest of you think? What evidence do we have of any strength that suggests she could take the action Doug describes?

Elizabeth Davis:

marrige has allowed mrs. ramsay decide what she wants. it took eight kids and a stale marrige for her to voice courage instead of dreams. are her kids eight attempts to fill the voids inflicted by her husband/marriage?

Karin Westman:

****If you'd like to switch to the other conference and join that conversation, you can -- just use the "Join a conference" command from the InterChange menu, and wait for the messages to load....

Doug Grant:

Mrs. Ramsay is obviously very headstrong, so what I wonder is how badly Mrs. Ramsay really wants out. Does she consider all the implications or see an alternative reality to the one she has?

Karin Westman:

Yes, I think they might be, ELizabeth, especially since she says she always wants to have a baby in her arms.

Karin Westman:

A good question, Doug: She talks about wanting to become an inspector (but the childen prevent such possibility), but would she take that plunge? What kind of power (or happiness?) does she have in marriage, suich that she's willing not to give it up?

Elizabeth Davis:

mrs. ramsay doesn't even feel worthy to tie the man's shoes and feels like a sponge without rain. who would encourage daughters into this? loyalty to her "master"? i hope Woolf was dramatizing the reality! but daughters are loyal to their mothers, right? conflict.

on another note, even the little boy doesn't like to be used as a measure for someone else. i think we see a lot of desire for individualism. or am i taking symbolism too far?

Doug Grant:

I wonder if were supposed to see her eight children as eight attempts towards contentment. Do they represent eight trials? If so, what does that say about her love for and committment to her family?

Caroline Hunt:

It's odd that Mrs. Ramsey wants to be an "inspector." Have any of you ever had that ambition? I doubt it. This strikes me as basically an "outside" version of what she is already doing, to an amazing extent, inside her family: scrutinizing, evaluating, controlling--rather as Lily says in the header to the discussion at the top of this page.

What is it about the culture of the time that makes her want to be an "inspector" -- is that the best dream she can imagine?

Karin Westman:

No, Elizabeth, I think you're right- those strives for individuality are there in most of the characters, I think, either thought or voiced.

Doug Grant:

At this point in time, I think Mrs. Ramsay's desire to be an inspector would be one very small step towards her individualism and idealism. Maybe she's beginning to follow her heart and move in a different direction.

Elizabeth Andrews:

I think Mrs. Ramsey is potentially confined by her commitment. Maybe she'll end up being like Ms. Marple in those British mysteries after her children are grown and her husband gone. Like Elizabeth was saying, individuality seems to be an ideal. Investigators are kind of loners in that sense. They achieve something through their own thought potential. That kind of dream could easily represent her desire to be independant of her dominating husband. But as ideal as it may seem in thought, none of the characters (yet) seem to ACT so as to bring about change or independance. Maybe it is too far out there for her to consider the dream as a reality.

Karin Westman:

To wrap up this half of our discussion, offer a final posting that returns to the initial question about the novel's view of marriage: Given Mrs. Ramsay's character and her marriage to Mr. Ramsay, how are we supposed to view the institution of marriage?

Amy Ketner:

It seems that this marriage is trapping.

Caroline Hunt:

Stultifying--crippling--numbing (at best).

Doug Grant:

It seems to me that everyone sees that society expects one to marry as a social standard, yet so many find themselves reluctant to enter into it, or if they already have, end up wondering: what if?

Elizabeth Davis:

the idea is stability and security in society. the reality is empty and foul. one would be better off without--

Elizabeth Andrews:

Unfulfilling. However neither Mr. Ramsey nor his wife seem to make great strides in cultivating their relationship.

 

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