InterChange Conference on Woolf's To the Lighthouse (pp.1-71)

June 19, 2000

Karin Westman:

One of the first things we learn about the youngest child of the family, James Ramsay, is that he hates his father: "Had there been an ax handy, or a poker, any weapon that would have gashed a hole in his father's breast and killed him, there and then, James would have seized it." The narrator continues, "Such were the extremes of emotion that Mr. Ramsay excited in his children's breasts by his mere presence" (4).

James is not alone, then, in his emotional response to Mr. Ramsay: Why? What emotions does Mr. Ramsay evoke in those around him? How are Mr. Ramsay's actions explained (by himself and others), and do those explanations evoke our sympathy or criticism?

Elizabeth Andrews:

I think that Mr. Ramsey is completely self-absorbed. Children have a profound ability to recognize certain undesirable traits in adults. Like his mother says, "children remember everything." I doubt that James truly hates his father, in fact, he probably loves him as well. But Mr. Ramsey has a tendency to love truth at the expense of those around him. He is constantly "rubbing it in" that James will not be able to go to the Lighthouse tomorrow. Mrs. Ramsey asks herself, "why does he keep saying that?" I don't feel any sympathy for him, in fact, I think he is a pathetic individual. However, I do see reason behind his actions. Mr. Ramsey feels so sorry for himself he seems to subconsciously evoke attention and sympathy from his wife. Perhaps this "rubbing it in" to James is intended (either knowingly or unknowingly) to gain a response. James, from a child's perspective sees the deceit and abhores it. I also think there is an element of parenting involved. Mrs. Ramsey thinks of how exhausting it is to be a parent because you have to be so careful of what you say. Mr. Ramsey lacks this. He shatters James's hope of a great trip without even thinking. Perhaps it is more out of inconsideration than malice. But a child would see the two as equivolent.

Karin Westman:

And his inconsiderate response does speak to his self-absorption, too, I think, Elizabeth, since he thinks about being right, not the effect of his knowledge on James.

Is there any benefit to his self-absorption?

Elizabeth Andrews:

Well, it seems to be a trade off. He is self-absorbed to the point of hurting those he loves (primarily failing to cultivate his relationship with his wife), but as Mrs. Ramsey determines, though he may be "out of it" in regard to flowers and children, his understanding can often be accute and beyond that of normal people. Perhaps it is his self-absorbtion that enables him to be a great philosopher.

Karin Westman:

Yes-- And is he a great philosopher? Or, is his self-absorption the "right" of the man of the family?

Jennifer Cook:

At times sometime the characters seem to have contradictory responses to him. On pg.46, Lily isn't quite decided about his character. She doesn't mind his arrogance, but at the same time hates his "narrowness"and "blindness." At times it seems like he's playing mind games -- like when he tries to exhert control over Mrs. Ramsey around page 31. It talks about how she has such great reverance for him, but it appears he tries to be more of a control freak.

Elizabeth Andrews:

I think he _was_ a great philospher, but as his "last book was not his best book" maybe it is consuming him. That is an ironic image to imagine that his self-absorbtion is absorbing him, but in Mr. Ramsey's case I think it could be true. He experiences so many near misses. He could apologize to James and smooth things over. He could have been the one to read to him out of the Fisher King book. He could have apologized to his wife for saying "damn you." But he never does. It occurs to him that it might be appropriate and beneficial to all those involved to ACT but in the end it is too hard for him. He is too interested in how he feels to consider the possible affects he could set in to motion regarding his family. If I were James, I think I would resent him too.

Elizabeth Andrews:

Do you think that maybe the children can see through him and his "mind games?" Why can't Mrs. Ramsey, or if she does, why is she okay with it?

Karin Westman:

Do you have little sympathy for him, too, then, Jennifer, as ELizabeth commented? Or are there social pressures to conform to (images of masculinity) that cripple his ability to help, consider others?

Karin Westman:

I think she does see the way his minds works-- in fact, she often anticipates what he desires, and responds to that need (end of Section XI, for instance).

Karin Westman:

****If you'd like to switch to the other conference and join that conversation, you can -- just use the "Join a conference" command from the InterChange menu, and wait for the messages to load....

Elizabeth Andrews:

Back to whether or not Mr. Ramsey is a great philospher. All of this is generally coming from the direction of his wife who views his talks with other men as nonsense. Maybe he IS a great philosopher. But his philosophical pursuits are not fulfilling him. Perhaps he feels that life can be more. This could explain his regret of marriage. Even Mrs. Ramsey knows that he is thinking he could have written better books if he had never married. So, I think he is totally missing the point of life fulfillment. He is trying to be complete only in one direction (his philosophy--ie, his career) why can't he see the other elements at work in his life and that he has the potential to cultivate them?

Karin Westman:

Good points, ELizabeth, that Mr.Ramsay himself is somewhat dissatified with his philosopher's life. He sys all he needs is a quiet house, away from the family and children he knows he's supposed to want, but even then...would that yield happiness? Possibily not, though at age 60+ there's not much chance for a change in career.

Jennifer Cook:

I thin on p. 64 it's interesting when Mr. Ramsey feels he has somehow failed his wife by not protecting her. "He could do nothing to help her . . . Indeed, the infernal truth was he made things worse for her" (64) The idea of Mrs. Ramsey acknowledsges he wants at the end sort of indicates a typified masculine goal -- to be protector of a "man's "family. Do you feel Mrs. Ramsey acquieces to Mr. Ramsey a lot because she senses some vulnerability behind his insensitive displays?

Jennifer Cook:

Sorry for the poor spelling!

Karin Westman:

Yes, I think she does agree with him to "build up" his sense of self....a fact Woolf asks to value or question?

Caroline Hunt:

Several of these very perceptive comments have showed how both Mr. R. and his wife feel, in essence, trapped (though that's not the word any of you have used). Do you think this feeling is a result of personal failings in one or both of them, or is Woolf suggesting that it's a problem inherent in the institution of marriage as consituted in the culture of the time?

Elizabeth Davis:

i definately think the children see through mr. ramsay's mind games. that may be why he's still around. i think their existance holds mrs. ramsay with him more than ideals of the life she could have had. to break up the man's structure, i think not!

Karin Westman:

To wrap up this half of our discussion, offer a final posting that returns to the question of Mr. Ramsay's role in his marriage: Are we to be sympathetic or critical towards his character, and why?

Jennifer Cook:

I think Woolf might want us to question "building up one's self." Is Mr. Ramsey or Mrs. Ramsey really happy due to any of Mr. R.'s personal endeavors?

 

 

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